The Cobourg Police Services Board held their regular meeting at the Corporate Service Boardroom on the second floor at Venture 13 on Tuesday, July 16, 2019.
As always, members of the public are allowed to attended.
Members of the public who attended congregated on the second floor of the Venture 13 building on D’Arcy Street and wait for the meeting to begin. The area of the meeting is in a room that is part of the secure section of Corporate Services for Cobourg Police where the general public is normally not allowed.
Two retired police officers from the Belleville City Police were in attendance along with Kathy Johnston from Cobourg who all stated they were they in support of Cobourg Police Constable Larry Davis who is under investigation for issuing a social media post on Saturday, July 6 stating there were only two police officers working in Cobourg on that day.
Also in attendance was Bruce Chapman who is the President of the Police Association of Ontario and Chantal Diotte who is the Cobourg Police Association President.
Today’s Northumberland was the only media present.
Members of the Cobourg Police Services Board who were present were Chair Dean Pepper, Vice Chair Ron Kerr, along with member Sean Graham and Aaron Burchat. Cobourg Mayor John Henderson who is also a board member was absent from the meeting.
Also in attendance was Cobourg Police Chief Kai Liu, Deputy Police Chief Paul VandeGraaf, Executive Assistant Katie Darling and communications officer for the Cobourg Police Service Laurie Debattista.
In the Communications report, Debatttista stated there were 27 Facebook posts for the month of June which was down a bit from May.
The top Facebook post was the Emergency Exercise. The top Instagram post was the Heroes Highway Ride on the Chris Garrett Bridge and the top Twitter post was the Pride launch of the rainbow crosswalk.
Vice Chair Ron Kerr asked Deputy Chief VandeGraaf during discussion about the budget if there was a regular Request For Proposal for the maintenance of police vehicles.
D/C VandeGraaf stated he wasn’t aware when the last one was done, but there hasn’t been a RFP for maintenance of vehicles since his arrival with the police service in 2014.
With the assistance from the Town, D/C VandeGraaf stated one will be issued likely by the Fall.
Chair of the CPSB Pepper mentioned that a meeting was held previous to the Board meeting with Chief Liu and the President of the Cobourg Police Association Chantal Diotte.
“We’re looking to address a number of things,” said Pepper.
“One of the most important things right now is the compliment of the service. We’re looking at introducing part-time Constables.”
“I just wanted to let the Board know that meeting did take place.”
There will be further discussion with the Association in the upcoming weeks stated Pepper.
The monthly board meeting ended after just over 11-minutes.
“That concludes the open discussion of the Police Services Board meeting of July 16 and we’ll adjourn and go into a closed session of the Board after a short recess,” said Pepper to end the open portion of the meeting.
But it wasn’t actually over.
It was the first Police Service Board meeting that Cobourg resident had attended. Johnston spoke up and asked, “are we allowed to ask questions?
Pepper stated, the Board’s procedural policy states the Wednesday before the meeting a person who wishes to speak has to put a request in and by Friday the Board has to know who is speaking and about what.
Pepper asked Johnston if she wanted to make a short presentation, but Vice-Chair Kerr stated it wasn’t part of the policy.
The matter went to a vote, and Pepper, Graham and Burchat voted in favour of hearing Johnston with Kerr voting against.
Ms. Johnston – ‘I’d like to see some accountability or some response from the Chair, the Chief of Police as to all of the questions being thrown around out there as you’re aware regarding the short staff issues. Why are we short staffed with our police department? Why is there only two police officers on duty for a population of 18,000 which swells significantly over the summertime?”
Why is there no response from anybody on the Police Board other than a post on Facebook saying, “we believe we are providing safe protection for the people of Cobourg?”
Chair Pepper stated he doesn’t use Facebook and doesn’t go on Facebook.
Ms. Johnston- It is in the media not only locally, but Global news has been in the area addressing the issue. I’m concerned for the safety of the police officers as well as the community. It is not responsible to have two police officers on duty for a population of this size. It’s not acceptable. And frankly I think it’s pretty abhorrent that it’s being allowed. And to hear, “oh well, we have back up people if there was an incident,” what would be the response time for those incidents with two people on duty.”
Johnston mentioned the murder of Cobourg Police Constable Chris Garrett and questioned if the service was short staffed at that time.
“We have tons of officers off duty right now with stress leave, medical leave. That’s not being addressed to the public. As taxpayers we have a right to know what’s going on.”
Chair Pepper – I respond to anybody that sends an e-mail to the Board. I don’t respond to Facebook, I don’t have Facebook. I’m not a social media person. If someone takes the time to write to me, I respond. I’ve done a number of them in the past week. But if it’s on Facebook and you’re asking me to respond – I’m not there.
Ms. Johnston stated to Pepper and members of the Board the Cobourg Police itself had on their Facebook page last week addressed the issue of the response.
(On July 7, Cobourg Police issued a release on their Facebook page that stated they “are confident in the quality policing they provide for the Town of Cobourg.”)
“Obviously if you read responses and read media, the community is not feeling safe at this point and I think it’s a huge issue that needs to be addressed. It can’t be swept under the table. Can you give me an example of how you responded to the e-mail this morning if it’s in reference to this?”
Chair Pepper – Other than the social media campaign that’s out there now, how are you coming to the conclusion that the public do not feel safe?
Ms. Johnston – It’s obviously an issue if Global news comes into town and covers it as well as well as local media. If you keep going back to Facebook this is a pointless discussion because you’re further sweeping it under the carpet and looking for reasons not to respond to me.
Chair Pepper – I’m just asking how you came to your conclusion. Normally we have a study done or a poll, or whatever, but just because there is media attention going, some media, there has been no study.
Ms. Johnston – So if I go out and do a poll in the community would you take me seriously then?
Chair Pepper – We need some proof of your statements.
Ms. Johnston – Sir, with all do respect, this is the internet age and a lot of communication is done through social media and there is a huge following supporting the officer that came forward. I know that’s not the issue here, but there is a huge outcry in the community that people are not feeling safe and we have a right to know why the staffing issues are the way they are, why these officers are off on stress leave and what’s going to be done? Apparently in this community I’ve heard we should have a minimum of four on duty. That weekend there was only three and one officer called in sick which left us down to two. How can you say that’s acceptable for a community this size, at the peak of tourist time that’s acceptable protection for the community and the officers out there protecting the community.
Some of what Chair Pepper says is inaudible, but he refers the question to the Chief or Deputy Chief.
Chief Kai Liu – First on the issue of community safety if you look at our last community survey it’s in the high 80’s where community people felt safe. But to answer specifically, the Saturday in question we had three people scheduled to work. Fortunately for us we support the officers. When they’re not well, they call in sick. In this particular case we had an officer call in sick. It’s as simple as that. We didn’t schedule for two – we ended up with two because we weren’t able to find a replacement.
Let me be clear, you ask about the Board about putting out a response for the service. That response was someone called in sick and we couldn’t find a replacement in time.
Ms. Johnston – When was the last survey done?
Chief Kai Liu – This was developed in preparation for the current three year business plan. Let me give you some history on the staffing. In 2004, at that time we were policing Hamilton Township. My understanding is that we had four working 10 hour shifts. The advantage of a 10 hour shift gives the police service the opportunity to have six hours of overlap. What that means is during that six hours the population of police personnel doubles. You can set your schedule so that in your peak hours, you will have more officers than your non-peak hours. When the Association asked for and it was agreed upon between the Association and Board in 2004 to go to a 12-hour shift, the Association agreed to a minimum of two. I came in 2012, in 2017 there was a notification from the Board to the Association that we were going to switch back to a 10-hour shift. That was to increase that staffing because we recognized, we needed more people and resources. The Association disagreed with that. They didn’t like the overlap of six hours. At the end of the day, the Board wanting more resources raised the minimum working together with the Association from two to three. So, the Board has always been consistently looking at ways of increasing our staffing. Our current compliment is 34. That’s the amount we have been running with. We are currently at 36. The Board has approved hiring two more people. Each of those additional officers is well over $100,000 when you factor in salaries, equipment and everything else. So the Board has consistently looked at our staffing based on our monthly report that is submitted to the Board from the Office of the Chief of Police. Again, the staffing is constantly being looked at and we, as late as yesterday met with the Association to again, talk about part-time police officers where the Board had proposed that to the previous Association Executives and it was turned down. We know that a number of our neighbouring service, as well as police services in southwestern Ontario have part time police officers to cover the long-term illnesses and WSIB’s. These are solutions that as of yesterday we are hoping the Association revisit. We have, from the Office of the Chief of Police, from the Board and from the Association, all three of us have the same mandate to ensure that our officers go home in a better condition then they arrive at work. That’s the goal that we strive for. No one of three bodies have a monopoly. That’s why yesterday’s meeting with the Association I would conclude as being positive.
Ms. Johnston – Can I ask of that compliment of 34 how many are off on stress leave or medical leave and actually how many are actively on duty at this time?
Chief Liu – I can say all of the members are off, are off on work related illnesses with the exception of pregnancies and those work related illnesses are approved by WSIB.
Ms. Johnston – So stress related?
Chief Liu – I’ll repeat what I just said. Those that are off, with the exception of paternity are off on approved WSIB.
Ms. Johnston – How many are off on paternity?
Chief Liu – I can’t get into details of specific reasons why members…
Ms. Johnston – How many are working right now? Out of the 34, how many are actively out, doing the job of protecting Cobourg right now?
Chief Liu – I want to protect, as I have a duty to protect the privacy of the members.
Ms. Johnston – And we have a right as the public to know how many police officers are out there protecting us. I’m asking you a question, how many of the 34 compliment are actively working right now as opposed to on leave?
Chief Liu – Again, I’m not here to debate you, I’ve provided you with the answer.
Ms. Johnston – That’s not an answer.
Chair Pepper – Ms. Johnston I gave you the chance to interact with us. It’s a question area, it’s not a debate. So please. If the Chief does not feel that he can answer your question because of privacy issues and things like that, do not debate or you will be shut down and be asked to leave. We’ve given you the courtesy to come and ask questions and I do applaud you for doing that. I wish we would have more people here during our Board meetings asking questions. The public should know what we are doing. At this point in time, it’s not a debate with the Chief, or any other Board members here. If the Chief tells you he cannot answer because of certain reasons – that’s final. You can ask any question you want, but if it can’t be answered and he tells you that, we’re not getting into a debate.
Ms. Johnston – With all due respect that wasn’t a debate I was just asking a question which he refused to answer. With obviously reasons why he’s refusing to answer.
Chair Pepper – He gave you the reason.
Ms. Johnson – And as a tax paying citizen of Cobourg I believe I’m entitled to actually getting the truth.
(Pepper explains to Johnston how to get on the next Board meeting to speak)
Today’s Northumberland – Previously to Ms. Johnston’s question, the police have said how many are working and how many are off. Previously that has been said in numerous media.
Board member Graham – I’m sure you guys are aware of, Northumberland News recently did a story and in that Port Hope Police were asked, their compliment, how many officers are working and they weren’t at liberty to discuss as well. It’s pretty common in the police service to not be able to divulge operational requirements and manpower for public safety reasons. Just recently Port Hope was asked the same question and they weren’t at liberty to discuss their manpower. Just so you’re aware Ms. Johnston
Ms. Johnston – Thank you, but really my faith in the service right now, I tend to side with Pete. I have more faith in what he says at this point right now. He’s been told that in the past.
Today’s Northumberland – As stated, it was before you (Board member Graham) was on the Board, but it has been stated in the past through Northumberland News and through Today’s Northumberland.
Board member Graham – But you’re aware of the article that Port Hope just responded with Northumberland News just two days ago.
Today’s Northumberland – That’s great. I’m just saying it has been said in the past by numerous media.
Ms. Johnston – I really encourage another survey to be done to see exactly where the public is on this issue, because I can guarantee you, it’s changed since the last survey was done. Thank you for your time.
After the meeting Chief Liu escorted members of the public from the second floor to the exit stating it is a “secure area.”
Next meeting is on August 13, 2019 at the Corporate Service Boardroom.
NOTE: Below are two articles previously done regarding the number of officers off. Today’s Northumberland referred to another media source regarding the number of officers that were/are off. We apologize for the error. It was actually “Cobourg Now” that did the story.
Exclusive – Nearly Half Of Road Officers With Cobourg Police On Leave
News Now Network Article regarding number of officers
http://www.cobourgnow.com/?p=6624
Author: Pete Fisher
Has been a photojournalist for over 30-years and have been honoured to win numerous awards for photography and writing over the years. Best selling author for the book Highway of Heroes - True Patriot Love
